Installing A Starter Motor

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Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:28 am

I enjoyed the article by Howard Hodson in the March/April 2018 Gazette concerning installation of a starter/generator in brass-era cars. Perhaps others with experience in this line could add some ideas. Here are some that came to mind:

- A starter motor with no generator could be added to a car. The 12 volt battery could be put on a charger after each days touring instead of charging in the vehicle. This would save the complexity of installing a voltage regulator and all its wiring, plus the weight and size would be reduced.

- Some drivers install a ring gear to work off a starter rather than using a belt. Is this worth the extra trouble?


Phil
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:24 am

I am in the process of a single unit starter/generator install on a hand crank only car. My attempt will be to use a Dodge Bros. unit from the teens to early 20's and mount with a serpentine belt over the flywheel (no cutting for a ring gear if I can help it). I am not sure that the Dodge unit will have enough "beans" to crank over my engine, but it could assist me while I am on the crank handle for starting. If anyone else that has completed this arrangement and has an operable system. Like Phil said, please post here.
Al
PS: I want to be able to use the generator side to tend the battery while running the car.
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Why not use a modern starter-generator unit like the Cub Cadet suggested in the HCCA article?

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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Phil, The problem with using a modern "Cub" starter/generator is that they do not have sufficient twist to roll over a larger engine. Even the "Cub" guys complain about that unit being weak. I do want to have a 12 volt system so that rules out the 6 volt Buick unit. I am desirous to run 12 volts as it will blend well with the rest of my automobiles electrical system. I will be testing and setting up a Dodge Bros. 12 volt starter/generator over the next few weeks and will report on my conclusions. I will show a picture of the first attempt using a "Cub" style starter/generator that was a failure, as mentioned before, not enough twist.
Al
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Cub style starter/generator first attempt at a belt drive conversion. This is a failure.
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:23 am

What engine are you trying to start, Al? Is your flywheel in the rear? Mine is a 4-cyl., 16hp engine with front-mounted flywheel (Hupmobile). I have a fairly compact 12v Toyota starter motor I plan to try.

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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:43 am

Hello Phil, My engine is a Locomobile 4 cylinder and just under 300 CID. Low compression, yes, however it is still a handful to roll through the compression cycle. The Cub style starter/generator just didn't have the beans to roll the engine through compression. Your 12 volt starter should do the job fine as it is designed just as a starter. I have thought of the idea of a similar conversion, to my picture, but just using a 12 volt starter not a starter/generator. However, I would like the system to also tend my battery while driving. The Dodge Bros. starter generator was designed for an engine just over 220 CID? or there abouts. I will yet determine just how it will all work for my application and report my findings back here. Let me know how your efforts on your project work out. Do you have provision for tending a battery on your car?
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:52 am

My Hupmobile Model 20 has no battery setup; just magneto. My plan is to use a 12v battery and recharge it from outside the car (that is, not use a generator), just for simplicity. I'm hoping to use the starter motor until I can get the car to running on the first or second pull.

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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:22 pm

The Locomobile is set up with a Delco dual spark distributor (electric) and the side and tail lights are set up, as originally, to be either oil or electric. If I have the starter/generator I can run the distributor and lights as needed and not kill the battery. Starting would be a pleasant side benefit if I can make the starter/generator work. The lights I am using are Locomobile Script Solar 933's, I am very happy with them. What mag are you running on your Hupp? A Bosch DU4?
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:52 pm

Yes, the Hupp uses a Bosch DU4. It's the non-adjustable timing type.

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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:17 pm

Hello Phil, I am assuming that your Magneto is a DU4 dual, which means you start it on points and a coil then switch it to run on MAG? Do you have the switch for it?
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:43 am

No, the Hupp has magneto only; no coils. It puts out quite a hot spark, which I noticed when holding it and turning it slightly. It does have an on/off switch on the dash.

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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:56 am

Hello Phil, I am curious what type of Bosch switch your Hupp uses. Several iterations was available depending on the application. Could you post a picture?
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby MochetVelo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:40 am

My switch was non-original, but I got a nice repro from someone. Here is a photo of what they look like. This Hupp has a choke knob, but I don;t think that is original. My Metz has an even simpler switch: a brass tab that contacts a bolt on the firewall.

Phil


Hupp Switch.jpg
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:53 am

Nice dash, the switch must simply ground out the mag to kill the engine. Is your car close to running? Getting ready for the upcoming touring season? How much room do you have that can be dedicated to installing a starter like discussed above? That "space" thought may be an issue as I look to installing a Dodge Bros. starter generator in my Locomobile. If you can, post a picture of the area into which you plan to install your starter. With a good battery, you will probably have many good hours on the car before needing to charge your battery, (the magneto does not need any battery to run). My project does need "battery" to run as the Delco is a conventional distributor, so tending the battery is a bigger issue for me.
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:05 am

After thinking about magnetos, I now remember, the Bosch magneto that at one time ran my Locomobile, is a DU4 dual. That means I have and would use a Bosch dual switch which has the coil integral with the switch. It is supposed to make the car easier to start as a good spark can be had at slower hand cranking speeds. Once running on the start side you would then switch to the Mag position and run on magneto only like your car does. Does your magneto have an impulse on it? These cars are fun!
Al
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby markIV » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:12 pm

Attached are a couple photos or the starter I installed on my 1910 Buick model 17. It turns over effortlessly & uses very little battery.
I don't have an on board charging system. I just attach a charger occasionally. I have a DU4 Bosch magneto with an impulse. it starts very nicely.
I use the original Remy switch on the coil box which I gutted & re-wired.
Mark
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0e6c296d502d4414da3b5efc3f7cc427.jpg
IMG_20151214_113141675.jpg
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:26 pm

Nice starter installation on your Buick. I bet that little gear reduction stater can throw the torque to your Buick. What ring gear did you find that you could machine the flywheel and fit? You are right, running a DU4, you do not have a serious need for a charging system. The nice thing about the gear reduction units, like you have, is they are small and many times our antique automobiles were not engineered with space available for installation of a starter. That space issue is still something I am dealing with on my project. What is the CID on a Model 17 Buick. That is the big Buick isn't it? Thanks for sharing the starter pictures.
Al
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby markIV » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:23 am

Hi Al,

I had Tom Holthaus at Quality Machine in the Bay area do the flywheel ring gear so I don't know what gear he used.
You're right, the Model 17 is the large motor at 318 cid. As far as space is concerned, I lucked out with just enough on the left frame rail.
I made the mounting bracket from some 3/4" bar stock I had laying around. Very stout.
Mark
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby alsfarms » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:40 pm

Hello Mark,
Did you also install hydraulic brakes? It looks like a master cylinder nestled in under the starter. Nice and tidy!. Could you share your engineering process that you used to fit the starter. I am not thinking that I want to go the ring gear route by may consider it. Where did you source your starter? Do you know what the OD of your flywheel is? I would like to compare with my engine. Is your car a roadster or touring? It seems one model is the 16 and the other is the 17?
Al
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Re: Installing A Starter Motor

Postby markIV » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:26 am

Hi Al,
I did install a hydraulic disc brake on the drive line.
It has a an Xterra disc, GM pickup caliper & 66 mustang master.
I works really well.
Again, Tom Holthaus supplied my starter.
If my notes are correct it came from Pro-Start & it's a reverse direction chev starter.
I had to buy a special pitch gear for it 12/14 -25.
My flywheel measures about 18 1/2".
Tom is a great source for this kind of parts & machine work.
Quality Machine Shop
4089-567-9490
You're right, the Model 16 is a roadster or demi-tonneau & the model 17 is a full size touring.
1910+Buick[1].jpg
model 16
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20180310_123028.jpg
my model 17
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