1910 Overland restoration

Get help and help others restore and enjoy driving/touring in horseless carriages
alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:26 am

Hello Bill, What were your attempts to resolve your fuel leak other than adding a manual shut-off valve upstream of the carb.? The valve is probably a good thing! None of us like the smell of raw gasoline in our shop and a puddle on the floor!
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:42 am

Howdy boys, DAMNIT!! After further review, I still have a problem. It seems I was a bit too impatient when watching for a leak while I had things on the bench, as changing the location of the tank made no difference. I am still leaking fuel after it sets a short time. I took it off the car and set it up on the bench, one more time, and watched the fuel level in the bowl, and where it flows in, for at least 15 minutes if not more. The determination is, fuel is still getting into the bowl, with the float at the closed position, as the float is under the gas level, and the fuel is still rising. This tells me the valve is leaking. Has to be. I checked this several times with the same result. Float is up all the way, valve is closed, and I'm still getting fuel into the bowl. The valve has to be leaking. Hard to tell, looking at the valve, but it must be. So that tells me the valve seat isn't quite as nice as I thought it was. I reckon my next step is to hone the seat, which is going to be a chore since it is very tight to get to, so I'll have to do some creative thinking on how to accomplish that. I'm thinking a small dremal tool stone, and a very light touch with a drill. Just have to see I guess. I have done this on Model A carbs with good success, so I'm confident I can do it..... I hope anyway! Man, what a deal. Sure wish some of the old boys from way back were still around to run this by... Thanks guys, I'll keep ya posted.

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:44 am

Hey Jack, I am not that familiar with your Model Schebler, but is a remote possibility that you could replace your needle with a rubber tipped needle? I know that Carter has several different "flavors" of needle and seat arrangements that are meant to seal up issues like you are having, (but on the Carter Carbs.). Just a thought.
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Howdy boys, well, still having problems. I believe the float valve is leaking after all. Not necessarily due to the head pressure, although I believe it was a contributing factor. I took the carb back off the car and set it up on the bench again. After letting it set, with the fuel open to the bowl, the bowl continued to fill, even with the float submerged in gas. I guess I was premature in my thinking that the fuel had stopped flowing with the valve in the closed position. So, here's my latest theory. The valve must still be allowing fuel to pass, even in the closed position. I didn't think it was, but it must be. I let it set for about 15 minutes, with the fuel on, and the bowl continued to fill, with the valve closed. This tells me the valve is not seating, like I had previously thought. Guess I should have paid more attention to it before coming to my other conclusions... Oh well, such is life. So, my next move is to dress the valve seat, which isn't going to be easy, since it is fairly small, and difficult to reach. I'm thinking a small dermal type stone, with a light touch should do it. Then, I would again attempt to lap the two (valve and seat) to get a matching surface. Damn, this is turning out to be quite a challenge! Thanks for putting up with my shortcomings! I WILL GET IT!! I did want to ask a question of you though, have any of you ever put a Viton tipped valve in one of these brass carbs? I'm considering figuring out how to do just that. Not sure that would cure the problem, but it might. Thanks guys, I'll stay in touch.

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:39 pm

Do a simple google search for carb. rebuild kits and parts. I am sure you will come up with a wealth of references to viton tipped needles in several configurations. You could possibly retrofit something from another car to work in your specific application. Viton tipped needle along with a well dressed seat and a GOOD float, that does not have any binding from skeewampus fits, should really result in a fix for you and you will be the new resident expert on healing up Schebler carb. drips.
Al

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:42 pm

I didn't fully answer your request for information on Viton tipped needles. When I rebuild the Carter BB-1 289SD carb. for my Locomobile, it is my plan to install the upgrade Viton tipped needle and improved seats that are available.
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Howdy boys, the carb I am using is a Schebler D. The seat is not removable, so it can't be replaced. The needle (valve) is about an inch long and the shaft is about 1/16 in diameter. The cone shaped valve sets about 3/8 above the tip. I haven't seen a Viton tipped valve that would work, but of course I haven't seen them all. I'll look around, but I do believe I need to address the condition of the seat. Thanks guys!

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:44 pm

A question for you Al, does the BB 1 have a removable seat, or did you put one in it? That may be a possibility with this Schebler. It would be a challenge! I'd have to let my son tackle that, but I think it could be drilled out, threaded, and a seat could then be installed? Maybe.

F12MAC
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: canada

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by F12MAC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 am

Jack,interesting thread. I had a similar problem with my 09 EMF,car ran very rich,made a test bench etc.and like you found it took about 10 minutes before the fuel would start raising above the float. The EMF carb needle and seat configuration is like your carb. I tried unsuccessfully to repair this. I had a carbide cutter made with the proper degree angle,made tooling to hold cutter square,dressed the needle,spent way to much time and frustration. In the end a fellow EMF owner sold me a carb body that looked like junk but it worked. Waiting on your results of a repair that works,still have the old carb and would like to use any repair technique that you come up with to beat this problem. Best of luck. Pete

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:53 am

Howdy Pete, thanks for the input, I'll definitely let you know the results of the fix, what ever that might be. Another thought occurred to me this morning, about 4am I might add, and that is, maybe the float isn't pushing down on the needle as I thought it was. That would allow it to unseat with little head pressure. I'll have to get out the magnifying glass and take a look this morning. I figure I'm just on the edge of getting old, but sometimes, as with seeing things up close, it's a challenge. Sorry I haven't called you yet. When I think of it, it's probably passed your bedtime, since you live on the east side. Thanks Pete!

F12MAC
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: canada

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by F12MAC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:46 am

Jack I thought along the same lines as you,played around with different float settings i.e. lowering to get more mechanical leverage,for increased needle pressure. No luck. I used a 8 foot drop on my test bench to get more head pressure. It was hard to change the float setting because the lever was a cast brass piece that would break instead of bending,so I shimmed between the lever and the float. With my carb it all came down to the needle/seat would start leaking after about 10 minutes and put the float under gas..Agian best of luck. Pete

Plumbline
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:26 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Plumbline » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:11 pm

Is it possible that fuel is being absorbed into the float?

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:45 pm

The more I see your problems with the ancient engineered carb., I would take a serious look at locating a new design needle and seat. Honestly, you may be time (and reliability ahead) to look at replacing your original hardware with a new replaceable seat and Viton tipped needle. I would also do, just as you suggest, to shim your float to keep as much mechanical advantage with the float to seat the needle in the seat. To answer your question, yes, the Carter BB-1 does have replaceable seats and needles. If you get to that point, you have made an improvement that will stay with the car for a long time. Do a Google search for BB-1 carburetor rebuild kits, you will see plenty! Good luck!
Al

F12MAC
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: canada

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by F12MAC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:55 pm

The needle on these carbs are not a standard type. They have a guide at the tip of the needle,so instead of the needle ending in a cone like most needles there is a eighth inch round nib that acts as a guide to put the needle into the seat. Cheers Pete

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:18 pm

Are you referring to the Schebler needle? A picture is better than a 1000 words. I have seen several different needle and seat designs for the Carter BB-1. I have even seen a flat faced needle that is supposed to be the "cats meow" for fuel leaks.
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:38 pm

Howdy boys, I had some time to fiddle with it today, so I took a hard look at the seat, and I can see it has some "roughness" to it. I took a small Dremel stone and shaped it to match the angle of the float valve, then worked it into the valve seat several times to see if I could clean it up any. That brass must be fairly hard, as it took quite a bit to get it to start taking material off. I marked the seat with a black marker, so I could see if I was taking anything off, and yes, I was. The stone I am using is pretty rough, I'd guess about 300 to 500 grit, so it's leaving a fairly rough surface. I put some brass polishing compound on a Q tip, stuck it in my drill and worked it around, attempting to smooth up the surface, but it didn't improve it much. Now I am on the hunt for a 1500 to 2000 grit Dremel stone to see if I can improve the surface of the valve seat. As you can see from the photo (D carb seat) the seat in the carb looks a little rough. In the next photo (D carb seat grinder) you can see the Dremel grinder I used to clean up the seat. I took a new stone and shaped it to the shape of the needle, as close as possible. The next photo (D seat marked) I used a marking pen on the seat so I could tell if I was taking anything off. The next photo (D seat cleaned up) shows where I removed material. I know these pictures are hard to see, but it's the best I could do. Difficult to get the camera to focus on such a small part. To answer your question, is the fuel being absorbed by the float, I don't think so, due to it being Nitrophyl. (not sure that's spelled correctly) If anyone has a source for 1500-2000 grit Dremel tool stones, let me know! And yes, I have been kicking around the idea of putting a removable seat in place of the original. I think there is enough meat to be able to bore it out, thread it, and place a needle and seat in it's place. One issue is, how do I attach the needle to the existing float arm? I'm giving it some heavy thought. Thanks guys, I'm going to be a wealth of knowledge when I'm done!
Attachments
D carb seat.JPG
D seat cleaned up.JPG
D seat marked.JPG
D carb seat grinder.JPG
D carb seat 2.JPG

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:43 pm

Jack, I think the mechanical connection, between the new design needle and float arm, is something that can be constructed or built to allow for a much better seat arrangement and also a much better needle for seating. You already have a very GOOD float to work with. Even a small leak will make you most unhappy with a dang gasoline leak and drips.
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am

You're right Al. For me, it's just a matter of figuring out how to do it. My son is pretty good at making things work, when I come up with the idea! My biggest fear is ruining the bowl when we try to drill and tap it for a new float seat.... Scary! Thanks!

alsfarms
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: Deseret, Utah

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by alsfarms » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:54 am

Jack, You just mentioned what is fun about these old cars! Looking at what is, (maybe not working) and then devising a GOOD fix or remedy that will allow for reliable and trouble free use of the old car. Seems like around every corner, I get to deal with similar but not the same as this issue your are playing with now! Hang in there!
Al

Jack
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: 1910 Overland restoration

Post by Jack » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:07 pm

Howdy boys, well I've come to the conclusion I must change out the needle and seat. I've fought this for better than two weeks, without any improvement, so, after much thinking, calculating, and conferring with the experts that I know, I think my energy should be wasted (I mean focused!) on how to insert a removable needle and seat. Not only would this make a better seal on the seat, but it would be easy to remove and replace, if that became necessary. I am now in the hunt for a suitable needle and seat to use. I have looked at a couple, but none that will fit in the hole and work as I need them to work. The current float would be used, so whatever I use for a needle will have to hook up to the float so it will raise up when the float lowers. After talking with Stan Howe, he, as I, believe the head pressure wouldn't be sufficient enough to overcome the weight of the valve, to push it up and allow gas to flow. So, I'm hunting for the right combination of needle and seat. I'll be back!

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